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i listened before lunch today...

never felt so good to be slapped in the face!

thank God for men so bluntly bold! may they be multiplied!

"There's no woman saying, Lord please send me that."

- in reference to men who think being a man means belching the loudest, farting the stinkiest, and spitting the farthest.

Driscoll is in his sweet spot when he preaches to men.

I love how Mark can teach verse by verse and still bring it to a practical level of application...the two are not exclusive of each other.

Ben, I heard that part of the message while driving home after working all night long and I almost had to pull over just let it all settle. Intense stuff but seriously practical! Hits home no matter who you are, we all have room to grow as men.

Side note... Did you watch Mark's panel with Deepak Chopra on the the ABC News Face-Off "Does the Devil Exist"?

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaceOff/

Segment 5 rocked it for me.

I only had the chance to watch minute 67 - I love the authority he has! His church knows his motivation is love but can he bring it. I can't wait to watch the rest.

BTW he did a great job on the abc news segment - you should check it out.

minute 67...wow, I can't believe nobody has talked about the shame he is pouring out on men and the fact that he claims it's the Holy Spirit who is condemning them with guilt. Accusations and condemnation have one source...and it is NOT the Father.

i think what we're most furious about is probably that which afflicts us most personally

I completely agree with LV, whoever he/she is. Though I can appreciate what Mark is saying in some form, I cannot and will not believe that it's from the Father.

Mark sure seems to be adding something to the Gospel here. "You can't be a Christian and a bad husband"--really? Does that sound like works-based salvation to anyone else?

Shame, guilt, anger, holier-than-thou attitude--these are not from Christ.

Now, should a man disrespect a woman or abuse a woman in any way? Absolutely not. But is there condemnation when this happens? Fortunately not for those who are in Christ Jesus.

Mark seems to have put the horse before the carriage. "Be a good husband and then you can call yourself a Christian."

That's backwards, buddy. That's backwards.

For those saying Mark got the horse before the carriage - did you listen to the first 66 minutes of the sermon as well? Was the Gospel not present there at all?

While I agree that the Gospel is that we are loved and accepted because of the finished work of Jesus and not on the basis of our works, the New Testament is also very clear that there are sinful actions and behavior that if consistently and overtly demonstrate in our life indicate that we are not saved.

Could it be that the strong words are not those of condemnation for those who are in Christ, but to shake the false assurance of men who claim to be in Christ but are still in their sins.

I'm just sayin'...

I'm sure that this guy may have been considered "over the top" when He shamed the Pharisees - Check out Matthew 23.

Concerning Mark - He's a guy who for the most part has his stuff straightened out, and he's charging "men of God" to do the same. 2 Corinthians 10:6.

He's not perfect, he's just doing his job...you don't have to go to his church if you don't like it.

I'm just sayin'...

nice. I bet Mark looked very similar to how Jesus acted when He flipped the script in the temple for the money changers.

It is possible to have a righteous anger. LV and bc, please open your eyes and get a clue.

"and the violent take it by force..."

What do you do with THAT scripture?

BC, read Matthew 7 and tell me if it terrifies you.

I'm convinced if you really "know" Christ, you won't be able to be a bad husband. You will love her as He loves us. Don't kid yourself with works based. He's giving a call for men to be men of God instead of lustful pansies. Not telling men to behave so God will save them.

"the kindness of God leads you to repentence..." Righteous anger is focused towards the enemy and sin, never a person. When you attack with shame, guilt, and condemnation it simply perpetuates secrecy.

How about the men in that room addicted to pornography, or anger, alcohol, or some other vice that has them captive...do you think they need to hear that they are bad people?! They already believe that about themselves. Do you think they need to simply find another strategy to stop doing what they inherently hate? No.

The only way out of what Mark is talking about is a loving community that is willing to sift through the darkness of sin and offer a patient embrace. I'm not advocating the sin of men...but I also know that the last thing men need to hear is that they are to be shamed.

Who convicts the world of sin and judgment? Is it the voice from someone in the Body of Christ? No. It is, and always has been, the voice of the Holy Spirit. Words spoken by men must be laced and immersed in love. The broken and lost, those locked in sin...the men Mark is screaming at, must find a safe place. And safety is found ONLY amidst those who are willing to admit the darkness of their own humanity.

The gospel is lost in accusatory shame...

it is indeed a lot of fury... i'd love to know what Mark's father was like

I'm a thermos... That's all I can say. Great challenge. Check out the last two podcasts from Francis Chan if you get the chance.

LV, what about "godly sorrow leads to repentance?"

The scriptures are clear, the Holy Spirit convicts. Scripture tells that there is no condemnation...for those who walk according to the Spirit. Too often we leave that part out. We get all happy about the no condemnation, but there is a caveat that comes with it.

The other thing to remember here is that Jesus didn't point out the sin of sinners, He went around showing them God's love in the form of forgiveness. He did on the other hand show the religious people their sin and showed them God's love in the form of correction. He even called them snakes and wicked.

The Holy Spirit DOES convict. As scripture says "godly SORROW leads to repentance."

I'm going to cut this one off because I think there's a more foundational view of salvation at work here. Reformed theology seems predisposed toward speaking truth without the nuisance of love. And unless you're a Calvinist, this makes absolutely no sense.

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